Official Luthiers Forum!

Hey, all,
I'm setting up to start spraying my first and am looking for opinions here. Obviously, I'm a new hobbyist builder and don't want to spend big bucks on a professional setup.

So what exactly is required for spraying? I've got plenty of compressor to handle any air needs (6HP, 60 gallon). I know this subject brings up strong opinions on both sides, but what about the Harbor Freight HVLP guns? Can these guns be set up reliably or am I just asking for trouble?

BTW, I am planning on shooting nitro...
westex9338719.1248958333

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Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

[QUOTE=westex93] Hey, all,

BTW, I am planning on shooting nitro...
[/QUOTE]

Unless you have an isolated, fully actively vented spray booth and an active personnal respirator system, don't. There are some very good waterbased finishes according to the guys here. Nitro is nasty stuff.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Colin brings up a good point. If you are going to spray , you should have a booth. You don't have to have a fancy booth but somthing that can be closed off and vented.
    Lacquer can be explosive so you will want explosion proof fans . Also you need to have air dryers so you don't get water into the spray equipment , then you want a good gun.
     Most of use that do spray have guns that cost serious money. I have Sata but it is not unusual to pay $500 for a good gun. Cheap guns don't do the job.
   HVLP's are the rage but good pressure cup guns are good for solvent finishes. Water finishes , well I don't know as I don't like them. I do all Nitro as it is still the better finish for gloss and repairability.
     Someone here will be able to tell you more. I just havn't seen a water borne that can gloss like nitro. I was at a show in Phila and one of the builders was telling me and my friend about how good water borne was , but you can see the Halo in the finish , it just has that look to me .
    john hall

Look for a good used DeVilbiss model JGA or a Binks model 7 on ebay. Might check with some local body shops or automotive paint stores too. Many automotive painters have gone to HVLP and these pro guns can be snatched up very reasonably. I have both and have been using them for 30 years. Harbor freight has a small touch up gun for like 15 bucks that is pretty decent for small jobs. Coventional guns will produce a lot more overspray than a HVLP so a booth is imperative and use an EXPLOSION PROOF fan.

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tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

Personally, I think you'd have to be a professional, independently wealthy, or crazy to spend $500 on something to squirt finish.

I spray nitro with a small compressor and finally moved up to a Sata Minijet HVLP jamb gun; cost me $225 a few years ago and it's a lovely piece. Sata makes beautiful guns but you can lay down a great finish with guns that cost a heck of a lot less.

I second the HVLP recommendation and get stainless internals if you can afford it, so you can spray water-based finishes if you choose.   

If you can spray outside (like I do) you don't need a spray booth for nitro. You still need the respirator and a place for the instrument to gas off other than your house, tho! I use a small compressor (2 hp / 24 litre) and a decent Italian gravity feed touch up gun, I forget the name. Works for me, but I don't have much experience with other finishes or guns to compare with.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Arnt: you're probably referring to the Walcom or similar the Homestead Finishing sells, right?

Odd thing: since volatile substances regs were tightened up in Europe, only HVLP guns with proper certification can be sold; I tried getting the walcom (or maybe asturo, can't recall), but was told that, at that time, they hadn't gotten it certified, and that it couldn't be sold within the EU. SATA's stuff was ready to go, and I don't regret getting the MiniJet one bit. Fantastic, quality gun.

      I allways advise people to buy the best you can afford. Cheap guns will give cheap results. I must be a fool as my compressor and gun are tools that I use and are worth well over the $1000 mark.
      Lets face a simple fact , tools make the job and being in my position time is money. If a gun can save me an hour a job , that is a considerable amount of time.
       Lacquer is one of the few finishes that are 100% repairable and have that back door ability. French polish is a fantastic finish for instruments and I am one to say that is a great way to do an instument as the cost factor is low , but it is a difficult technique to master .
      Good finishing take longer than building when it comes down to it and it isn't a bad idea to let people that are set up for finishing to do that for you. I personally like to be able to control what I am doing so I do my own but there are some great people out there that you can farm this out to.
   A good finish is what will sell your guitar. Eye appeal is buy appeal
     Good luck with your finishing.
John Hall

Mattia, my gun is an Air Gunsa (Anest Iwata) AZ 40 HTE, I got it at an auto finishing shop in town. My nitro is "Saphir Polerlack", made by Ernst Petterson of Goteborg, Sweden. I can no longer get it here, so I'm now in the process of importing 5 gallons of Lawrence Mcfadden directly from the US factory, which is no easy task with all the hazadrous materials shipping restirctions.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

AS you could probably tell, I'm a French polish fan, I still believe it's the best finish available for a musical instrument and not that difficult to master.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Wes,

I use the SATA mini-jet, and have been very happy with it. I haven't used the Harbor Freight HVLP gun, but I wouldn't reject it out of hand, either.

Harbor Freight makes a lot of junk. But a lot of their tools can, with a little tuning up, be very functional and economical for a hobbyist. I have a Harbor Freight drill press that my dad bought decades ago and it functions very well. I would do some searches for reviews on the Harbor Freight HVLP by people that have owned them; as I recall, quite a few people got decent enough results.

As far as the spray booth thing, I think it really depends on your circumstances. If you live in a windy area with a lot of debris around, and you are trying to do this professionally, you definitely need a booth. But my circumstances are very different. I spray just one or two guitars a year, and when I do, I open the big garage door and hang the guitar under the door. I don't spray if there's any breeze, or it screws me up. I wear a respirator, and make sure my family stays inside with the doors closed when I spray. My family and I can live with these limitations, and I get good results. Every once in a while a mosquito gets itself stuck in the wet lacquer and I have to sand it out, but as a hobbyist I can live with that.

    I guess I am at war with Harbor freight.I just don't try anymore. Too much junk and poor quality. I had a sprayer from them and just not consistant.
     Grizzly is a little better but if you can afford Sata that is one of the best yet. If you do spray outside , as I used to , get yourself the plastic wardrobe bags , they have a zipper in the front and you can spray outside and close the zipper.
     I have a nice 000 I did that has a gnat in the top. I just tell people I inlaid that. LOL.
   They are not that expensive and do keep the blowarounder things off the guitar , not to mention the bird bombs
john hall

Hesh, I spray outside when it's quite cold, but if it gets below -5 C or so lack of flow out becomes a bit of a problem. I thin more and somtimes use a wee bit of retarder and that helps some. I let the instruments gas out in the garage with no humidity or temperature control. I can’t tell that it has hurt anything; I have never had any finish checking or anything like that. I won't let instruments hang outside in the extreme cold to avoid sudden changes in temperature or humidity when I bring the instrument inside. Contrary to popular belief the extreme cold is rare in Norway , humidity is quite stable too.

Yes, I'm a hobbist with more time than money, can you tell?

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

I know I'm new to this forum, & don't want to step on any seasoned toes, but I have to take exception to John's contention that an inexpensive gun will necessarily achieve inferior results.
I have over 25 years experience in aircraft rebuild, overhaul & refinishing. I've sprayed hundreds of gallons of finishes over the years with many different kinds of equipment.
I agree that a high end gun is an asset, but surface prep, proper mixing & filtering, cleanliness & spray technique are (IMHO) more important than how much money you lay down for equipment.
The single most important factor to achieving a good finish is having a strong, directional light source, so you can see exactly what you are doing.
I recently had to replace both of my trusty old guns (a top of the line Binks & an expensive DeVilbiss detail gun). I bought a $75.00 NAPA production gun which does a fine job. I recently tried out the detail gun that Stew-Mac sells & I was so impressed, I ordered one for myself.
If I was still spraying large objects, I'd buy a high end gun, but for small pieces like guitars, it's really not that necessary.
I like the detail gun because it makes a lot less overspray... Less waste & a lot less lacquer in the air.
This little gun has a small pot, so you have to fill it after every coat, but it sprays a nice wide fan & is very controlable.
I recommend buying a good regulator & water trap. 1/2" air hose will supply more even pressure to the gun than 1/4" or 3/8" hose.
As I mentioned, you will need good light, so you can see how wet & evenly the finish is goin on. Hold the guitar so the light is glancing off the surface straight into your eyes. You can easily see dry spots or developing runs as you shoot, & adjust your technique accordingly.
If you're just starting out, I suggest practicing with your gun, spraying water on a sheet of cardboard or
plywood 'till you can get the surface evenly wet without the water running.
Play with the fan & trigger controls on the gun until you get familiar with how they affect the spray pattern.
Read the instructions that come with your gun... You'll find lots of helpful tips & tricks.
AND... buy a good respirator & change the filters as soon as you feel any resistance to your "in" breathing.
Hope this is helpful.
Have fun & play safe... Dan'l

Edit... I have never used a low pressure gun & know virtually nothing about them... Except that you need a large tank capacity or a special compressor to supply a sufficient volume of air.

Daniel M38719.6588310185

Hmmm...thanks for all the replies. So, the general consensus is to shoot nitro or not to shoot nitro, use an expensive or cheap gun, build a spray booth or shoot at the garage door... Thanks, guys! (I knew this would probably open up a can of worms.)

I considered the FP thang, but decided to go nitro or other sprayed finish. Partially because I already have the compressor and partially because of the FP prejudice (I'm interested mainly in bluegrass dreads.) I had intended to do something like the knockdown spray booth I had seen. (Was that Tim's?)

And I would consider farming the job out but, I don't know, just wanted the braggin' rights of having done the whole thing myself. That was the whole reason that I decided to go from scratch instead of a kit.

BTW, I am one that is a definite advocate of HF tools...if you know which ones to buy. True, some of their stuff is junk, but a lot of their tools are well known to be killer bargains and dependable tools. Especially if you don't mind a little initial tweaking and setup, but you need to do a little of that with any new tool, right? My shop is about 50% outfitted with HF stuff.

Of course, it helped that my wife used to work there. 20% employee discount, you just can't beat that.

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Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

Hey Wes,

I was just at the Mohawk store in Vancouver a few weeks ago to buy some instrument lacquer and walked out with HVLP system that includes a pressure pot affare and the two hoses (I think) to the gun. I have a huge compressor (5 hp two stage behemoth) so volume is not a problem. It is an import, I haven't used it yet but have used import guns a lot for furniture and they have always worked out well. The cost of this unit was about $180 CDN.

Not much info here but hey, another bit of food for thought!

Shane

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Canada

    I am glad to see opions that differ from mine. We all can learn from each other. There are reasons I don't like HF , quality is one.
     I do agree price is not a garantee that thing are better. I personally don't have time to "tweak" thinks. Most of you are hobbists and have that luxury.
     Prep is alot that will determine the end results. If you finish and you cut corners on preping you can expect it to show on the end results. There are so many good guns out there that are suitable for most needs. I do admit I have a no name gun that I use for sealers. It beats cleaning the guns when I need to use a sealer.
     Basics need to be followed and techniques must be improved. If you buy a $500 gun , don't expect that to make your end result better if you don't use it properly. I see more guitars that are great sounding guitars but too many steps in the finishing were omited.
    I hope you guys don't think me a snob there are just different circumstances a production shop while have to contend with and if you grow these are the things you will need to fend with.
Good luck and I hope to see more of you
john hall
blues creek guitars

I realy dislike the whole "finish" part of this job but...after trying several different guns and finishes etc. I think I like using my Fuji Q4 HVLP and Nitro the best.

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Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

I hope I didn't give offence John. That was certainly not my intention. I take everything said in a forum situation to be opinion... Thank goodness we don't agree on everything all the time. There'd be nothing new to learn from each other.
My motto is "buy the best you can afford", but as a guy who is still building his stock of tools & equipment, I have to economise wherever possible. Using my old "5HP" portable compressor & middle of the road HP guns allows me to spend more on... wood.
Dave; what kind of compressor do you use for your low pressure gun? One day I'd like to upgrade... I need another learning curve!

Never took offense. I love to see others opinions. Once you get going in this , it seems people will sniff you out and you will soon be busier that you thought .
john hall

[QUOTE=tippie53]   Once you get going in this , it seems people will sniff you out and you will soon be busier that you thought .
john hall [/QUOTE]

That's an intriguing mention about "people sniffing you out". As someone who dreams of one day supporting myself making guitars - it would be interesting to hear examples of how people have sniffed you out.

Hi Wes,
I just finished my first guitar and can tell you what I did - for good and bad. I bought the $50 spray gun at Home Depot and used my existing compressor to spray nitro. I sprayed outside specifically on days with a very light breeze (to dissapate the overspray). I sprayed once on a still day and was shocked to see how much overspray hovered as a cloud in my back yard. Not cool. I let the coats dry in my garage w/ a fan venting to the outside.
What I did wrong: I didn't do a good filler job on my mahogany back and sides. I followed all the directions but it just didn't fill the pores. Next time I'll practice more on scrap and use a clear filler instead of colored (I've seen the difference and think the natural color of the wood is preferable over the color of the filler).
I also didn't take enough time practicing on scrap and fiddling w/ my spray gun - it looked like a good pattern coming from the gun and I was pressed to finish before the rains came. I ended up w/ a lot of depressions where the filler didn't level the pores. All in all I'm happy with the guitar but next time I'm going to practice practice practice!
I also want to put together a knock-down spray booth with the standard filters etc so I don't pollute the neighborhood. I think silicosis would suck...

    I just started building as a hobby and as work got out I got busier. Most of my business is jigs and alot of kits.
    i do over 100 kits a year for builders from the simple hobbiest to pros . It just makes it easier that you can open the box and start building.
     I do take build commisions and do a few a year. most are custom designs . While I do still do a full time job I think that this is the last year for that. With repairs coming in and custom pearl work I will soon have more than I can handle